Jehovah's
Witnesses At My Door
This was originally published February 6, 2009 by Octaman Radio a.k.a. Zidkenu. We repost it now to head off already long answered queries or remarks on the relationship or lack thereof between JW's and Bible students like me.
Here's my latest chat with my JW friends...I always welcome the visits, if they find their way to me. I'm in a group of houses and I caught them one year canvassing and so I waited until they were leaving the neighborhood and I asked them if they got everybody, and they said yes, and I told them that they missed the one house where there's someone who had read the collective works of Pastor Russell and they smiled nervously and drove away upon learning it was me.
I felt I had to approach and speak to them if only to tease them a bit, because I knew that they knew about me, and that they had purposely avoided the house for years. I guess all those questions about modern Israel fulfilling prophecy must have seemed too - confrontational.
So a couple weeks back I finally got another visit from some JW friends. They were a man and a woman at the door whom I'd never met. I just acted naturally as always and the first thing I did was invite them inside.
They looked surprised. They explained that that was unusual, and that so many people were downright - mean - I think might have been the word. I comiserated with them and empathized. I told them again and again that I respected them for the work they did. I shook their hand and introduced myself and the lady smiled very nicely as I did.
Not to recount the entire meeting, but the first thing they noticed was my bookshelf, and all the Bibles. I showed them around my little library collection, all the Towers, all the Volumes, the NWT, the Kingdom Interlinear, some old JW pubs, then I showed them my CD poster and asked them if they recognized the ediface. (see here http://www.octaman.com/cdposter.html )
They said they didn't, but then the lady thought maybe... somewhere. I found the page in the proclaimers book and showed them the original and they were only very mildly enthused. I showed them some pictures of me on the wall performing at a recent music show, and I could tell they didn't know what to make of me. I gave them a CD to take home. The man seemed pleased, and asked the woman to go to the car for a book to give me. She left and another man came in her stead, whom I had met before. He did not seem to be as pleased as he recognized me. He handed a book on Revelation to his partner. I graciously accepted.
Of course they wanted to get their point across, so I allowed them all the time they wanted, and this is the gist of their message: That according to Matthew 24:14 ( I think it was ) the gospel must be preached to every single person on earth, and that they, the JW's, were the only ones in the world doing that work, and so therefore this verse proved that they were the one true church. They mentioned something like "billions of hours" of preaching work.
As is usually the case, they like to talk and want you to listen, but when they said something in error I did manage to say a couple things as politely as I knew how about Pastor Russell, and what he originally taught. Now they wanted me to know that it was they, the JW's, who were those that carried on the message of Pastor Russell, and they put it in such a way that did not match the facts of history.
(I told them that I did not mean to be contentious in any way, I was only stating the historical record when I say that actually, Pastor Russell died in 1916, then there was a split, and by the time the JW's were renamed in 1931, fully 75% of the Society had left due to differences with the new leadership. I explained that brother Rutherford left off the teachings of the 6 volumes altogether, making many changes, such as abandoning the significance of the role of natural Israel in God's plan, and the Great Pyramid as God's Stone Witness. They seemed a bit irked by my attention to the particulars, as it did not jibe with what they had just told me. They like to think of themselves as the sole proprietors of Pastor Russell's legacy, and don't want to think of their being any Bible Student groups in existence outside their own group, me thinks.)
They continally returned to their main focus; that they were the only true church movement because they were the only ones preaching the gospel to the entire world. I recalled all my many experiences in and around the world of sales, as this was obviously their most recent effective sales pitch.
I bade them to look again at the picture on the wall and explained that I was on a stage in Seattle doing just that, and that I use music, and that I've been on radio and that I have many websites...
They stopped me. Not everyone has a radio, you see. Not all have internet. I wasn't given much opportunity to answer that, but it occurs to me that you can be on the radio one single time and talk to more people than you could ever meet in a hundred JW lifetimes of walking door to door. I would think they are passing up a very effective medium if they want to reach people. I did not think that it had to be person to person only.
I showed them several booklet publications and said "we also publish and distribute these, and some brethren do go door to door..."
Then the new arrival of the two men, the older gentleman whom I had met once before asked, "when you say 'we', who are you referring to?" And the other guy said, "yeah, what do you mean 'we'?"
It struck me that these guys were not catching on very quick that I was not a JW. The facial hair and dreadlocks may not have been a big enough clue. It seems they really didn't know that there really were Bible Students, until I said, "I mean 'We' meaning Bible Students."
"Oh." They said somewhat regretfully. They returned to the same theme once more, showing me the verse again, but of course I'd heard enough and wasn't going to make a purchase this day. I had to explain my view of the passage. I said that the way "we" see it, the verse doesn't say that every person on earth must hear the gospel, only that the gospel must be preached within every nation on earth.
They insisted that it did indeed say every single person. I offered to look it up in the Kingdom Inerlinear to show them that it said "nations", but they just had to run. I would have had them in to see my Chart of the Ages, to hear the music with Pastor Russell's voice in it, even to have some hot tea, but I knew better and I said, "I know, I know, people to see, gotta get to more doors."
No no, they assured me, they had to be somewhere. I bid them good afternoon, and asked if they'd please tell the sister I said thank you. Again they seemed befuddled by my attitude.
I like them. Again and again I assured them that I respect what they do and that I think their work is significant. However I did not tell them what I really know, which is simply this. What good are billions of hours of preaching, if you are preaching a message that is wholly antithetical to the true Gospel of the Kingdom by insisting that only JW's are saved in their "ark", while tragically missing the boat regarding Christ's meritorious sacrifice being not for (their) our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world?
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Should the Bible Students......have any fellowship with the Jehovah's Witnesses?
This is a matter entirely left up to individual conscience. On occasion "JW's" have come to my house, as perhaps they have visited yours. Do we let them in? Do we bar the door? On some occasions I have had contentious debates with them. On others, the conversation has been quite pleasant. I attempt to let them in and serve them water or something, having a great deal of respect for the courage it must take to go door to door and face hostility with what they consider to be the Gospel, to the best of their ability.
How many Bible Students are former JW's? How would they become so, unless they were to talk to us? So my question in reply would be, is a mere conversation considered "fellowship" as per your question? I don't know of any Bible students who would think it a profitable practice to attend Kingdom Hall meetings, but a conversation is a means by which WE preach, also.
Are not the JW's considered a non Christian Cult,
That would depend on who you talk with. Certainly the nominal systems do so teach. On the same hand, they refer to "Dawnites" or "Russellites" -- the Bible students - in the same regard. I would say rather that we should treat people as individuals when we meet them, and not "do unto others" what we would not wish they do unto us, in labeling them with unpleasant names. Especially when it is most apparent that they are doing the best they know how, and perhaps the Lord allows them to be where they are for the time being for a purpose. Again, many of us have come out of other Churches and denominations.
As I see it the JW's are the enemy of the truth, false prophets and blind guides!!!
Are you a Bible student? Have you ever had anyone say the exact same thing to you for simply being a "Bible student"? Again, how many do we know who are formerly JW's? I know some who were a part of the Organization for over 20 years. If we had simply written them off, and refused to talk with them, perhaps they would still be in the Organization today. There are things they teach that we know to be error. Jesus himself was surrounded by a contentious people who were filled with erroneous ideas, and false religions. Yet this did not stop him from faithfully ministering the Gospel to them, and neither should it stop us.
Yours,
Octaman
1- Did Jehovah ask anyone to announce his Kingdom?
2- Did Jehovah ask anyone to go door to door?
3- Did Jesus ask anyone to announce his Kingdom?
4- Did Jesus ask anyone to go door to door?
5- Did Jehovah ask anyone to be his witnesses?
6- Did Jesus tell anyone to be witnesses of him?
7- Did Jehovah say he would replace the Leaders in Jerusalem with a General Board, in New York?
8- Did Jesus say there would be a steward over the Household of Faith?
9- Who was that steward?
10- Who fulfilled Revelation 14:19?
11- Who told us that there would be 144,000 members in Christ's Body?
12- Who told us, The Truth About Hell?
13- Who explained the "ransom" ?
14- Who explained that Christ had returned in 1874?
15- Who wrote the books? "Studies in the Scriptures"
16- Who can compare the years after Russell's death, to 1942 to be anything like the years that he served from 1878 to 1916?
17- How can you claim that Jehovah is blessing the work of that Organization?
18- They are not telling the Truth about Jehovah/s Kingdom, they do not understand it.
19- They are not Witnesses for Jesus and his Kingdom but are telling about 2875AD and when Jehovah will take the Kingdom from Christ.They mess people up, pervert the Truth and make people worse off than they were.
20- The False Religion of the JW's will be done away with by the Truth of Jesus in this century.
Respect from Me to You, Bob Jones Present Truth Forum
Friday, October 29, 20045:00 AM PRESENT TRUTH FORUM
by
OCTAMAN
The Doctrines
of
The Bible Students
Are
of
The Bible Students
Are
Dear Friends,As far apart from the "Jehovah's Witnesses" as East From West
We've heard various descriptions given on this forum to describe the relationship between the Bible Students and the Jehovah's Witnesses as "peas in a pod" who are the "spiritual children of Pastor Russell", with mere "minor differences." We've seen that the majority of those posting their thoughts seem to think that the two groups should simply "come together" and "unite", in a sort of ecumenical ode to brotherly love, etc. Isa 8:12
The fact is, the Bible Students have no more relation to the Jehovah's Witnesses as they do with the Papacy. They have come OUT of the worldly church organizations, and that former association is where the relationship ended. Rev 18:4
One could say that since Bible Students and Catholics both believe in Jesus Christ, all the subsequent differences are minor. This might be the view of muslims or atheists, those who are uninitiated as to the nature of Christian belief and doctrine, but it would be laughable to both Papists and Bible Students alike.
The fact is, doctrines are not dispensable items that are to be tossed away because of causing separation between us. Jhn 7:17 Rom 16:17
Pastor Russell died in 1916, at a time when the brethren within the Bible Student movement all saw eye to eye on most doctrinal issues. By the time the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" was coined in 1931, 75% of all Bible Students had left the Watchtower Society, precisely because of the wholesale gutting of the doctrinal teachings found in the Bible and clearly elucidated in the 6 volumes of Scripture Studies penned by Pastor Charles Taze Russell.
There was no choice remaining but to change the name as it was evident by that time that the movement bore virtually no resemblance to what had existed only 15 years prior. The fact is, the Jehovah's Witness Organization and it's teachings are as far removed from the doctrinal foundation of the Bible Students as east is from west.
From Adam to Zionism, there is no comparison. Aside from ONE similarity, both being non-trinitarians, the similarities virtually end. Most of the entire world of Christendom has given up the doctrine of eternal torment. With hell fire long since quenched, that doctrine can hardly be used to link the groups any longer.
JW's (short for The Jehovah's Witnesses) are a religious organization. The Bible Students are not an organization in any sense except that their meetings are conducted in orderly fashion. The JW meetings and witness activities are directed from a hierarchy. The Bible Students have no such hierarchy. That in itself is a vast difference.
With no clergy/laity relationship in place, it is incumbent upon INDIVIDUAL Bible Students to spread the Gospel in the time and manner of their own volition as they feel they are called and led by God. The JW's activities meanwhile are strictly enforced, and thereby forcibly co-erced. This point alone creates a chasm between the philosophies of the two groups that can NEVER BE BRIDGED - unless of course the JW's should decide to stop the practice of literally taking their marching orders from Brooklyn New York, and dissolve the organization completely.
Christian liberty is only one area where not only are Bible Students and JW's not at all similar, they are in fact the POLAR OPPOSITE from one another.
Bible Students have true Christian freedom and liberty. Gal 5:1 While the individual JW's may in fact want it, they aren't allowed to have it, as this all important doctrinal item was taken away from them long ago. Gal 2:4
This is perhaps the most common reason why Bible Students leave the JW organization, as well as leaving other worldly religions. False religious systems espouse extra biblical teachings and impose undue yokes upon the faithful that are contrary to the very spirit of Christ. Jhn 8:36
Not intending to write a book on the subject at the moment, I will address the two aforementioned doctrinal areas, Adam and Zionism. I'll leave the multitudinous differences in between for an alphabetical book in the future, perhaps.
When it comes to Adam, there can be no greater difference between JW's and Bible Students. Quite simply, JW's believe and teach that Adam is not redeemed, and will receive no resurrection. Bible Students see this as a denial of the Ransom, which is the most precious doctrine of all Bible doctrines. If Adam is not redeemed then neither are you, and neither are we.
Briefly the Ransom doctrine as it involves Adam is this: The first Adam, a perfect man, sinned. Thus the need for the man Christ Jesus to take his place on the cross and bear the penalty of that sin. 1Ti 2:5
Adam was the original father of the race, and Jesus took his place in undergoing the death penalty FOR him, thereby obtaining the right to be the father of the race , and becoming the second Adam. 1Cr 15:45 It is a simple economic transaction well documented throughout the Christian Bible, known as The Ransom doctrine - that by one man sin came upon all, so by one man the many were made righteous.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Jesus Christ tasted death for EVERY MAN. Hbr 2:9 The JW's not only deny this most fundamental doctrine of all, they go further out of bounds by insisting that THEY are the only representation of the body of Christ. And they insist that ONLY the Christ can be saved, therefore if you don't join their earthly organization, you are outside of Christ and therefore not saved.
And what of those who are allegedly not "saved"? The JW's, by their insistence on this most narrow view of salvation, would have us believe that in the loving wisdom and justice of our Almighty God's Holy Plan, 99.999% of all the human beings who have ever lived and ever died are to be eternally annihilated. After Pastor Russell had only a few short decades earlier so beautifully and succinctly explained the truth of this matter, this number is the saddest of all to see. Gal 1:6-11
Bible Students meanwhile generally accept that the opposite is true. While accepting that a varying number will not accept the offer of eternal life and will be ultimately destroyed in the Second Death, Rev 20:8 they generally see that as a hopefully small number. But nowhere in any way would a Bible Student ever teach that unless one accepts THEIR version of the Gospel that they will then end up destroyed with no hope of recovery, which is no less than a satanic belief.
The differences between Bible Students and JW's are manifest. To insist that the groups are somehow still related is to deny the facts, and to ignore doctrine. While many are willing to do this, I for one am not interested in that sort of "sweep it under the rug" ecumenical effort. I will instead take the side of the Pastor that the JW's have wholeheartedly and wholesale rejected, when C.T. Russell said "whosoever is not willing to defend the Truth is not worthy of it."
It is obvious from this issue of the Ransom doctrine alone, and the number of people ultimately saved thereby, that the JW's have little or no "truth" left to defend. But like all of Satan's counterfeits, there must assuredly be some truth somewhere in the movement, and there is, in the vague Kingdom message offered in the fourth grade reading level magazine, ironically titled "Awake!" when it really can put one to sleep - spiritually.
Pastor Russell, the first and greatest true Christian Zionist who ever lived, astounded the world with his accurate predictions regarding (among other things) the re-gathering of Jews in the land of Israel, and the re-establishment of their national polity as a part of God's Plan for blessing mankind in the future Kingdom of God on earth. As His earthly capitol, Jerusalem would be the very Seat of Yahweh. There represented by the Ancient Worthies, the world of mankind will be required to apply to Jerusalem for assistance in making spiritual progress, in their efforts to come up the highway of holiness in the Millennium. Zec 8:23 Isa 35:8 Zec 14:16
It may have been astounding to the world to see Jews re-gathered in Israel, but not so to Bible Students who could PLAINLY SEE these things in the Scriptures. Jer 16:14-15 Jer 23:7-8 But one Joseph "Judge" Rutherford committed one of the greatest crimes in history by engaging in what is commonly known as "replacement theology". He stole from the hearts of his adherents the Jewish hope, and thus stripped virtually half of the Divine Plan of the Ages away with a single brutal stroke of anti-Semitism.
He stole the very name "Jehovah's Witnesses" from the Jews, as it applies only to them. And more importantly he removed the significance of the Jewish people and their trials and tribulations from the panoply of Christianity. Of course there were only a scant 20% or so of the original Bible Students remaining in the Watchtower Society by the time he wrote his infamous letter to Adolph Hitler, making his rejection of Jews known to the "Fuhrer."
With replacement theology in place, the Christian today is blind to the very signs of the times that Jesus Christ told us to watch for, as events unfold that will ultimately extol the name of Yah before the entire world. Eze 38:16 Mar 13:37
This will happen during events having solely to do with the Land of Israel, but those JW's who insist that Israel and the Jews are no longer a part of the Heavenly Father's plan not only miss the most crucial element in TRUE eschatology, they miss the chance at a deeper relationship to their God which can only be had with a proper view of God's plans and purposes, toward Christians, toward Jews, and toward mankind.
The differences between JW's and Bible Students are manifest. They are NOT the same, not even close. And perhaps the most glaring difference that stands out after seeing the conversations on this web forum is that, while Bible Students, myself included, are almost always willing to reach out to our Jehovah's Witness friends, even calling them "brother" - the JW's will not reciprocate. The feeling is not mutual, due an an entrenched and systematized prejudice. Not only are they loathe to call us "brother" under any circumstances, they even go out of their way to avoid our houses. What's more, they go even further out of their way to describe us in their literature and in conversation as "the evil slave" and "apostates", based not on any first hand knowledge, but on pure isolationist bigotry handed down from their hierarchical government.
So, that having been said, ask yourself just how similar do you think Jehovah's Witnesses and Bible Students are?
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